May 2020 Forensic Meet and Confer

AFSCME Labor Management MSH

May 21 2020 1230PM

Administration Building


Attendance: Adam Castle, Ryan Cates, Steve Wilking, Emilio Florez, Kurt Crosby, Annie Jakacki, Scott Melby, Marvin Sullivan, Scott Melby, Lisa Vanderveen, Denise Considine, Alli Kuhlman


Reflection/Celebration: Marvin-Governor Walz for approving the contract. Melby-that is good news. Cates-No complaints about Covid leave. Thanks Ally.

Standing Agenda Items:

  1. Osha Information-Handouts

  2. Overtime Information-Handouts

Old Business



  1. Bulletin Boards-Cates-Update in vocational and FNH. Melby-They are there.

  2. Oak Staffing Levels-Cates-A lot of incidents. There should be an extra staff. Lisa-we continue to assess that. It is high acuity so we are always reviewing.

  3. LPN and Reduction in Groves-Cates-talk about reducing LPNs and groves. Roxanne-no updates at this time. We are evaluating.

  4. New Unit Issues-Cates-new units and water shutoff switches. Carol-I wasn’t sure what you meant. In seclusion room? Cates-yeah. Oak and Pine are the two but shutoff is outside the seclusion room. Other units you need a key but on the others, you don’t. Carol-plan was to place that up. Is there a shutoff on the inside? Cates-spruce and redwood but not the others. Carol-I think we were going to plate it off but I will look into it. Melby-can we put seclusion room shutoffs on the topic for next month Alli? Alli-yes.

  5. Defined Work Areas-Steve-Waiting on documentation on the work areas. Alli-we are working on it and should have it by today or tomorrow. Steve-send that to me.

  6. Lead Leveling Process-Cates-wondering if you are considering changing the process. Alli-I talked to Liz and she thought afscme was going to bring forward recommendations. Cates-we could put something together. We can bring some forward if you like. Denise-we are open to that as well as MSOP. We would like to see what your ideas are first. Cates-we will bring some next week.

New Business



  1. Covid 19 Concerns-Cates-Cloth masks. We heard DCT is looking into not allowing cloth, only procedural. Carol-I’m not hearing that. But that doesn’t mean it won’t change. Scott-I haven’t heard anything saying that for source control. Guidance could change from MDH and we are monitoring that. I am using cloth to save the procedural for something else. Roxanne-I haven’t heard about moving away from cloth. I use cloth in the community. Marvin-I’m seeing CDC updates that surface contamination is minimal. Wil we still use number 5 spray? Roxanne-we can evaluate but it’s another risk mitigation.

  2. Inconsistency filling staffing shortages-Cates-AODS has some positions filled and some not. Some will inverse, some wont. FSS in FMH. Scott-that is hard to address, we are trying to be consistent. Time of day or lack of notification. Give examples and I will follow up. Cates-Rover position is sometimes filled and sometimes not. Looking for consistency. Scott-for certain? Cates-yes. Scott-I will do follow up on that.

  3. FNH patient passed away deemed critical incident resulting in IOD/Admin Pay but were told to use 3 sick days for work comp to kick in-Steve-IOD helping in good faith for patient and were injured. If it is aggressive act you would go IOD status. Kurt-it does state that if suffered an injury from overt or aggressive act. Marvin-traumatic event for staff where we deal with trauma. We are saying staff don’t matter. We need to take care of staff. Denise-I heard from someone about this situation who was out for a day. Workers comp doesn’t pick anything up unless its 3 days. By the time I heard about this, the employee had taken another day because she didn’t feel okay coming to work. When I talked to their union, we discussed options. We worked with the employee and they were satisfied. We need to know in the moment, on the back end, we are beyond it so we can assist. This is the first I have heard with afscme. Cates-in the moment we can only do what we can when told. We tried to get it as soon as possible so that is why we are bringing it up. Denise-let us know, we would like to work with you. But to come in and say we don’t care about staff is incorrect. Carol-I reached out to nursing home when I heard this. Supervisors came in to reach out to staff and offered assistance program. I agree, I feel bad if people think we aren’t supportive of them. It was a significant even. Marvin-I didn’t mean that. What we are hearing is that members felt that is what happened. Carol-I feel bad that the staff feel that way. We try to reach out and give support. You can only open up so much and if they don’t want to accept the offers. We can always try to do more. Marvin-In trauma, people don’t always want to meet with supervisors because it feels like an investigation. Cates-EAP there is still trust issues. Steve-The next day supervisors came in. was that employee working the next day or did someone reach out to them beyond that next day? Carol-Supervisor came in that night but maybe we should have come in the next day as well. Kurt-does IOD cover situations like that. Staff tried to help them. Denise-IOD is part of work comp process. In order for IOD to be covered it has to be workers comp. Cates-not correct. Denise-I can take that back and find out. Cates-IOD covers for 3 days on an injury until Comp takes over. Kurt-IOD even covered when they had days off. Denise-I can look into.

  4. Vacation request and approval process. Needs and number of spots-Cates-outside of posted pay period it goes by available. Roxanne-active grievance? Cates-It’s finished but raised the question again. Is it what we have always agreed to? Scott-I know that in my old job in MSH this is what happened. Cates-it used to be but now it’s going back to them claiming they have 10 days to hold it then after posted now they are going by program needs, not vacation spots. Marvin-Jodi agreed moving forward as long as its prior to posting, they would be looked at before 10 days. Go by numbers of vacation spots, not program needs. Scott-I’m not aware of any changes. If there are cases, we can look at it. Cates-wanted to see if we are on the same page. Not referencing a grievance. Scott-not aware of change. Roxanne-not aware of the process changing as well. Scott-they have been busy filling known in advance overtime so I don’t know if that’s why. That’s all I know. Cates-so it hasn’t changed then.

  5. Patient Behaviors sent to OSI and those not sent-Cates-questioned by OSI about a patient who ripped a door off a cabinet. Yet there was one where the patent spit on a staff and that wasn’t sent to OSI. Carol-I don’t know specific. Every day we reviews reports. We then get back to the supervisor. We look if it meets threshold for chargeable. Property damage dollars. Staff assault degree level. Bodily fluids isn’t included for forensics. Cates-there was a change last year-Carol-I’m thinking that didn’t get changed. Carol-I don’t think so. Let me look into that. Often times we rely on OSI. They are the professionals. It’s looking at clinical implications. We know it won’t be successful when defense can look at the patient status. And Chargeable or not. Marvin-county attorney will look at if it’s a pattern as well. Carol-not always. We rely on Ashley. Sometimes they group together and sometimes it doesn’t work that way. Marvin-as a staff, you are looking at if its property compared to their health. It looks like property is more important. Carol-that is not the message I would deliver. We are always looking at all incidences. If it’s something we can move forward we will. Criminal behavior and clinical status. Marvin-no one told the staff but it’s perceived that way when they get called in for property damage but then a patient gets nothing for an assault. Carol-I will follow up with Ashley with bodily fluids. Scott-staff need to look at the process. If patient is incompetent. There is no way we can be successful in prosecution. Cates-it’s not about the punishment. Its knowing there is a process going forth. That someone can’t assault and there are no consequences. This is the only place in Minnesota that a staff can be assaulted and there are no repercussions. We don’t care about jail. We want charges so members know there is something being done and not part of their job. Annie-working with these individuals, the problem is the patients aren’t stupid. When they figure out how these charges work, they will take advantage of that. That is the perception of the patient. Carol-I asked Ashley about the bodily fluids section being passed for FMH and she said it had not been added for FMHP. Only for MSOP.  It was not successful the last two years. Cates-they listen to NAMI more than labor. Kurt-why don’t we give them to the county anyway even if we don’t think it will be charged? That is their job. Carol-In the past we had OSI and Nicollet police involved. I am willing to bring it up again.

  6. Hazard Pay-Cates-any progress? Denise-since yesterday, no progress. Nothing new. We will let you know where it’s at.

  7. Masks-Steve-is there some clarification or guidance for dress code or patterns for the masks? Carol-follow dress code policy. Wouldn’t allow bad language, violence, alcohol, drugs. Other than that, we don’t care. I want people wearing masks. Almost 100 percent compliance. No skulls or scary faces. Steve-people have asked if it’s part of the dress code policy. You are referencing if you can’t wear on clothes, can’t wear it on mask. Carol-correct

  8. Staff Vacation in excess of 275 hours-Cates-We have agreed on extending the July 1st deadline to December 31st. A form will be needed to fill out. Annie-There is an MOU for AFSCEM to get all 14000 members to vote to extend the 275 hours to this date. Denise-MMB has approved to extend from June 30 to December 31st. DHS staff approval for request doesn’t go through mmb but will go through Connie jones to request the extension. I will notify everyone when it is out there. Annie-timeframe to expect this? Denise-I have not heard on that yet. Alli-there are 6 staff over that number right now.

Add Ons:

  1. How is the tent staffing being funded-Carol-DHS put out to capture all time used for covid 19. This is sent all the way up to Connie jones. Being tracked that way. It’s coming from budget right now. At some time hopefully capture federal funds. Steve-if peacetime ends. Does covid tent end? Carol-we have a committee that goes through command. It’s about how we will move slowly to normal. This will be really slowly. It is high risk here compared to other living situations. Some from DCT command center and some things we will control locally. Sharing our demobilization with DCT. I envision the tent being there for the foreseeable future. Emilio-Other places it’s not good enough. They are buying new technology to minimize exposure. Are we looking at anything else? Scott-yes. We are getting more ideas all of the time. We will make modifications if we find better equipment but the entire world is also looking at all of this stuff as well. Kurt-Cambria has a system with a machine that scans your body and one person asks questions. If it’s not ok, they are sent back. I just want to give you the idea to look into. Scott-if you have a contact, get that to me.

  2. WTA vacation and covering other positions-Steve-They are no longer being allowed OT submit vacation and required to cover residential, kitchens, etc. Do we know what is happening? Deploying WTAs to work outside of work areas? Scott-We are in a pandemic. Doing things we have never done. We have leaned on vocational in screening tent because there isn’t as much work going on in the shops. They have been asked to assist. We may be looking at others to do things other than normal duties. Cates-You are taking their vacation away so they can work other places. Plenty of supervisors sitting all over playing video games. Scott-has anyone had vacation cancelled. Cates-only that it will be honored but only one spot will be available. It lists the staff out on covid leave and that should not be done. Scott-I need to follow up and if there is someone playing video games, I am not ok with that. Carol-I was not aware of decreasing vacation but I will look into that now. I will also look into the supervisor playing video games. Scott-I am fine with your email going to Denise with private information. Kurt-has there been discussion amongst HR potentially restricting vacation anywhere? Denise-I have heard it but it’s not something HR controls. I have heard it has happened other places. We are looking into all of those. Reasons, etc.

  3. Forest View South as quarantine Unit or Bartlett patients-Carol-long term is to occupy with transition readiness. Right now set up for quarantine area. Moves in June is Bartlett 1 north to forestview north June 3rd. Marvin-if using forestview south as quarantine, is there issue with air on forestview north? Carol-each side are separate air systems. S

  4. NOCs Merger Grove E with FMH NOCs-Steve-talked about lumping into one day off pool. Lisa-This did get delayed with covid. Alli-I will give you an update soon.

  5. Cluster Usage on Hickory-Cates-Used for break area for staff. Now has been taken away and being told can’t use as break area. Why take it away when they can still see the unit. In the street, they cant. Lisa-I will follow up. There were using it when I was in that area as nursing documentation. Cates-right. They kept radios up there and go up for a snack quick. Lisa-yeah, I will do follow up on that.

  6. LPN assigned to Covid Tent-Marvin-Came up in grove B. assigned RN to the tent and then the OD changed it to an LPN. Frustrations coming in and sent there with no experience there. Cates-constantly told you can’t hire them and taking away responsibilities but now you have an extra to send to the tent. Carol-this is more of an AOD question, I will do follow up. I didn’t know that was happening. During this emergency, it’s about what resources do we have on campus. We may get to a point where people are sent where needed. Marvin-they were never notified then they reach out to their supervisors who had no idea. Carol-I will look into that. Marvin-last night for grove B.

  7. Nursing being fit with N95-Cates-Where are we at with this? Carol-They got all nursing on nights tested and unless they were gone, we should be close to 100 percent tested. Next is HSSS at nursing home.

  8. Carol-I posted on the covid SharePoint that we have a staff member positive for covid. We are communicating it to licensing. That person is quarantined for 14 days. Message is to reinforce social distancing and masking. Screen before work etc. Steve-will we be doing a contact tracing and let staff know? Carol-document attached to the posting. Roxanne-There is a document on the SharePoint. It outlines the process for risk. A lot of it is directed by the DOH. There is a process that we go back to look at contact for that person using our sources. Anyone identified as medium will be contacted by MDH and directed if they should come to work. Low category is about coming to work and screened. Monitor yourself for symptoms. Carol-it is fair to say that if staff isn’t contacted, they fall into low category. Is that correct? Roxanne-yes. Medium to low you wouldn’t hear anything. Annie-I understand the process. I would like to add that we feel staff have the right to know if they have been exposed no matter what. Cates-even considered low risk due to masking, you could have been working with them and taking home to family. They have the right to know. Roxanne-we don’t take it lightly either. We want everyone to be protected. It’s not our intention. MDH are the ones that help us throughout the process. We aren’t minimizing risk. Cates-we know there are privacy concerns but the staff should have the right to know of exposure. Kurt-staff that was exposed sent home for quarantine? Carol-in screening test, its family member because it’s about close proximity. I’m hoping all of this have the mindset we could be exposed at any time.  In the tent anyone can have it but not showing symptoms. We should all be careful with distancing and wearing mask, etc. Kurt-in the tent asked about intimate contact. What does that entail because everyone is different? Carol-it has been posted what that means. In contact in close proximity to that person. Cates-social distancing isn’t practiced in FMH just by being at work with them. Roxanne-I can appreciate the anxiety. Direction is from DOH. Being a living facility, it’s monitored closely. I don’t know what they will say. We have reported it and they will report back to us. Cates-can we know which program it is in? Carol-forensic services. We should be looking at meeting purposes. Marvin-it’s not the meetings. So many staff on units at times that we have no place to go. Carol-we should be having that many staff. We need to look at that then. Marvin-they leave at 130. On many units. We had 6 nurses in our unit and 10 SCs for an hour. Carol-I get that. I want to look broadly at campus. We aren’t there yet. Maybe we need to be shifting bodies. However we need to manage that distancing, we need to figure out how to manage that. Kurt-staff potentially exposed choose not to come to work to isolate? What happens? Steve-could be asymptomatic. Roxanne-we could have asymptomatic working now. Steve-I respect that but that person may not have ever been exposed. How would I know if I’m asymptomatic unless I was in contact with that? If I choose to self-quarantine, what is the process. For your family as well. Carol-it’s about everything. This is a pandemic. Be cautious everywhere. Continue to be reasonable as well. Any symptoms we are asking to stay home. Steve-if I have been within an intimate contact with positive covid. Do I qualify? Denise-there are a lot of factors. My understanding DOH someone does 72 hour footprint and notify the people in contact, then they tell them the steps. Someone reaches out to confirmed case to get that. They would then say, you do this and that. Annie-contact by MDH is that you are following guidelines. As HR and management, if I find out I was in contact, do they qualify for covid? Denise-if they believe they had contact, they fill out the paperwork and then it will be reviewed. If they are approved, they will be on leave. Marvin-if I’m in contact with coworker, it is up to the paperwork but at home it’s with someone not confirmed you send me home for eight days? Denise-you asked two questions. If it’s confirmed yes. You fill out the form. We approve or disapprove by that information. You need to look at that form and complete. We review. Marvin-I can ask questions the same way but if it’s at work it doesn’t matter. If it’s at home it’s the same. Carol-it defines the risk level. Low risk is presence in indoor environment but not same room. Low risk is more than ten minutes when both people are wearing masks or only the positive is wearing mask. MDH will use that as the look back. Will then notify who they need to with the steps. We are looking at scenarios and documents from a lot of sources. Managing through those directions. We are letting everyone know on campus that we have one case. We are waiting on MDH to tell us what to do next. Kurt-concern is if we are exposed and we go home to someone who is medium risk, do we wear mask all day at home? What is the recommendation from MDH? Or go home and self-quarantine. Roxanne-instruction for health care with low risk is that you should monitor self and any symptoms. If you don’t have symptoms for 14 days, you have no restrictions. This is from DOH and CDC. Cates-they have not done a very good job with this this far anyway. Roxanne-we have priorities for these people. They will not turn you away.

  9. Cates-if someone calls in sick is it policy to ask the questions as opposed to. Carol-you call into the lead. If its covid, the process is HR calls back with questions. Alli-yeah, if its covid related, you will be contacted.

Meeting Adjourned at 210pm