Forensics February 2020 Meet and Confer Minutes

AFSCME Labor Management MSH

February 20, 2020 1230PM

Administration Building


Attendance: Adam Castle, Ryan Cates, Jamie Sheppard, Alex Flores, Annie Jukacki, Scott Melby, Michelle Chalin, Marvin Sullivan, Elizabeth Trandum, Patrick Patterson


Reflection/Celebration: Scott-physical plant has been doing a great job with snow removal. They have been very busy. GMW and GRWs have been busy moving staff offices.

Standing Agenda Items:

  1. Osha Information-Handouts from Elizabeth.

  2. Overtime Information-Handouts from Elizabeth.

Old Business



  1. 2 Supervisors talking to management- Cates-any follow up? Scott-I followed up with them and spoke about this to be mindful of how that makes staff feel. Cates-also to take them out of the situation because it looks bad.

  2. SIP Process for Nursing- Cates-Shawn was supposed to look at it. Scott-SIP for nursing, there are struggles how it should look. Shawn has a project to look at for AODs as a whole. I don’t have an update. Last week I wanted him to meet with AFSCME members for their ideas. He hasn’t done that yet. I wasn’t able to talk to Roxanne.

  3. Aspen Unit Dissolution- Scott-everything subject to change. Covering all areas. Team will move to oak unit then look at staffing levels on that team. It was built for 2 to 1 and will no longer have that. Lots of thoughts on staffing but nothing finalized. If we leave more staff than they need, they will have to cover. Then we have another issue. population is 14 minus a 2 to 1.

  4. Hospital Coverage Needs 2 Staff- Cates-hospital coverage were called out where they had 1 staff. One night in particular. I told them to refuse if they don’t want to sit it. AODS said we are only using one staff. Need two for breaks. I don’t know the date but I can find it for you. Scott-I will follow up.

  5. Atlas Update/Permissions for App- Scott-it says it wants access to contacts etc.? Cates-yes, staff are worried about employers having access to their phone. Scott-I think the code is embedded. We are working with appeon to not have it. cates-if they deny access, they can’t use it. Scott-other apps that if you deny, you can use the app? Cates-yes that is correct. Scott-we don’t want access to your phones. We are working on it. Still working on the apple phone issue as well.

New Business


  1. HSSS Working Title- Michelle-we will be changing the title from HSSSS at nursing to certified nursing assistant. The classification is the same. Cates-CNAs that don’t have the CNA, are there jobs they can’t do? Michelle-can’t provide assistance with ADL. Feed, transfer, toilet, but they can do laundry, dietary, appts, bed making etc. we developed a list of things they can do. Cates-try to split them up? Michelle-no, only have 2. 1 started yesterday. The one in January will be certified so shouldn’t have more than one on a schedule. We will evaluate with the needs. CNA in training. Nursing home only place that uses.

  2. Scott-27th is labor management meeting. Would like to have AFSCME members there. 8am. Daisy conference room. Trandum-interested in changing the time or locations but we want you there for the input. Scott-it’s a good place to share information.


  1. OTA Hours- COATs-occupational therapy assistants. Work 8 hour days, evenings, and weekends. MAPE OTS’ are allowed to switch to 10-hour shifts. Any way to give them 10 hours shifts if it works for them. Scott-have they talked to sups at all? Cates-I think so. Trandum-I will follow up with Kelly Kennedy.

  2. Members catching Influenza at work- Cates-Staff in transitions who caught influenza. Some don’t have sick hours. Told they need to use ETL. Issue is they caught it from work. Asking to not be forced to go without pay. Comp time at minimum. Patrick-case by case. Sick policy they can’t use it. the two you are talking about didn’t have it. to say it was 100 percent at work isn’t fair. Cates-can never say 100 percent. Were working on the quarantined unit with the same influenza. Patrick-one did have enough sick and the other was working with supervisor. State policy is that vacation cannot be used in lieu of sick time. Only continuous leave. FMLA, etc. management has flexibility for weather, then have to fall back on the contract. We can bring it to our leadership to confirm. But this is the reason. Cates-not sure if they have comp hours. Patrick-only two had to be brough to Roxanne to review. Annie-if they have ETL, will that be used against them. We don’t want that counted. Trandum-its approved ETL that won’t come back on a review. Scott-our expectation that our supervisors write in comments ETL approved. Have staff look into that.

  3. Contract Language- Cates-Multiple inverses in nursing home where sick calls are considered emergency to violate the 24 in 48, before weekends, etc. sick calls are not an emergency. We file these grievances all of the time and we always get the same response. Always denied. Emergency language that allows to inverse someone. It says you cannot inverse someone before scheduled leave but you keep violating it. HR and management. Scott-to say we feel we don’t need to follow the contract isn’t true. Cates-we get snarky or dishonest responses. Scott-I don’t tolerate snarky responses. Tell me about those. We get put in positions where we need to fill the shift and we don’t want staff unsafe. Cates-that is a staffing issue. there should be enough staff that we don’t have to violate the contract. Scott-we try our best to fill staff to complement our calls. We need to have enough staffing. Cates-you are violating article 21 I know. Scott-what if people call in sick and we have a blizzard. We will never agree on the language but we have to use it sometimes. Marvin-its being used on a daily basis. At nursing home, it happens daily. Scott-I will continue to look at it. we are always looking to bring in more staff. Marvin-should have been done a year ago. Scott-There is a constant turnover for staff. Talked to a new employee that said she came here because it was a great place to work. Marvin-not the situation we had 3 months ago. Scott-I don’t like inversing people. It is an unpleasant reality here. I appreciate your advocacy. I will continue to review it. if we don’t fill the shifts, we also have an issue. Trandum-my perception is it was improving. Is it not? Marvin-not inversing. Cates-there were problems up there and we filed grievances. Last couple months we get step 3s regardless of it being black and white. It has picked up again. Annie-how many times in last 6 months has the emergency language been used? For everyone to see it is an issue. snowstorms, etc. is what it is used for. If we can all look at it and see the pattern, we can have a discussion. Scott-report out of atlas? Trandum-just email us and we can try to get that. Scott-it may show where someone is inversed when not “inversible” Trandum-agenda item says, your interpretation. We believe we have been open to listening. We have different interpretations. While you think it’s a violation, that doesn’t mean we agree its violated. The way it’s written, is as it’s a fact. Cates-it is our interpretation. Trandum-on behalf of HR we don’t want management violating the contract. Scott-the AODS does not like inversing people. Check with Jodi on the report. Trandum-then we can move it to another meeting or the next meet and confer. Annie-then we can see how many times it has been violated. We aren’t arguing that it may need to happen but maybe not as often as it is. If there is a pattern, there is something we can do. Marvin-The AODS will blatantly say yeah, we violated the contract. Where is that coming from? We think HR. Cates-we assume they are being coached by someone.

    Subsequent shift. Cates-if a shift ends 60 mins or half hour prior, are you offering it? Scott-oh, so security services? Cates-possibly. Scott-I don’t know but I assume we aren’t because it is outside of that 30 mins in contract. If you are getting questions its possible its not consistent. Trandum-find out more specific. Do you have a request? Cates-in past the management hasn’t done it but I argue they should. Language says offered to on duty employees. Scott and HR disagree on that both ways. I just want it done one way. Scott-I focus on that 30-minute language. If I offer it, then someone else wants to grieve it. my preference is to follow what the contract says. Its pretty clear. Not subsequent if more than 30 mins. Also means we shouldn’t be inversing either for that. I don’t know what the practice is but let me know. Cates-we have argued both ways but we want it consistent. Marvin-if we go one direction, we stick to that. Scott-I want consistency as well.  If back filling doesn’t happen, we need to know. There perspective is sometimes they don’t need the extra staff. We shouldn’t be saying we need the 8 o clock staff.

  4. Safe Staffing Levels- Cates-rumors are to reduce overtime, sick calls won’t be back filled. Scott-we need to look at our overtime, there is a high rate. We just talked about sick isn’t a time for emergency. We need to look at our overtime practice. We are looking at overtime. Cates-no plan to not back fill sick calls? Scott-there is no plan, but it has been discussed. Cates-if you don’t back fill and someone gets hurt, there will be backlash. Scott-I know that and I expect that. We have to look at overtime. I don’t want to inverse folks. We need to look at best way to utilize staff. No changes at this point.

  5. Clarification on number of hours capable of being worked- Cates-years ago we talked to carol and bonnie that staff cannot work a 3rd shift in a row. People are working doubles and coming in after an hour. Are people capable if picking up an inverse? Scott-volunteering? Cates-yes, can they. Trandum-there is an active grievance on someone picking up overtime voluntarily? Cates-are they allowed to pick up 3rd if its for an inverse? Scott- I don’t know if I can give an answer. We have people that say they can’t work 1 shift. If someone says “I’m good” I would think about it. Cates-it may start happening. Any thought if allowing if its for an inverse. Scott-if they say they are willing and capable why would we stop them? Cates-correct. Being told can’t but can leave a couple hours and take it. Annie-are there times when they work double and then get middle shift? Not eligible anyway. Trandum-I don’t think its happened. Cates-has happened but moved early shift and took it away and scheduled for later shift. They would take the early shift away. Scott-I’ll get back to you. I don’t know what staff do when they get home. If they have another job and come back. We looked at the 3rd shift because some staff were taking all of the overtime. I will look at it. can create unsafe situation. I assume if someone says good to go you will support that.

  6. Grievance Responses-Cates-they don’t adequately reflect labors argument. Some over an inverse and it says the language doesn’t apply. Asking for more honest and reflective responses form management. Trandum-we send you the responses but it is managers response. We rely on them to accurately reflect it. their reflection? Cates-both. Trandum-ok Cates-sometimes not even accurate or thrown out good points we made completely. Scott-all steps. Cates-no, not much at one. Two and three there are a lot like this. I have heard the presentations and get the responses and it is not accurate at all of what was said. Scott-would help if the form itself captures that. Cates-that’s intentional because I don’t want you to be prepared without hearing me speak. Scott-I look at the grievance but a little more information would help. Annie-I agree with cates, we want to be able to have the meeting to have the discussion before you make up your mind. Scott-I appreciate that but if it written down it may cut down on mistakes. Trandum-HR takes notes on presentation we often ask if you have typed them up. Its helpful because sometimes you speak quickly. Our intention is to accurately reflect your presentation. If you have more notes on things, I would like them. I have also heard you say some comments, you don’t appreciate. I hear it from management as well. So, I think we can both work on that together. We are not interested in not being accurate with responses. The actual responses, we have different interpretations. 3rd steps are formatted that way. Steve-I will take the response and reflect it when you want it.

  7. Sprint Cell phone issues/cell in scheduling for OT calls- Cates-problem with sprint phones not being able to call 985 numbers. A member left a message, got called back but couldn’t respond, then OT was gone. Can they have a cell phone so people can call back. Scott-I will see if we have a phone. Some staff have the phones and Its on sprints end. Cates-they did a ticket on it and it worked for a while, then stopped working again.  Scott-I will look into it.

  8. DCT Announcement/Legislators- Cates-telling members not to talk to them about the workplace. Will they be in trouble? Trandum-best brought to DCT meeting. I think it came from them. I don’t think forensics has intentions. Scott-no one has contacted me about doing anything different about you guys talking to legislators. I don’t plan on it but if someone does tell me, I will let you know. Annie-concern is that staff should never be told who they can and can’t talk to. Will then be disciplined, etc. what have you been instructed to do? Carol has said yes, talk to them to lobby. Scott-I have got no instructions. Trandum-I will bring it to Melissa. Marvin-its questionable that anyone could say you can’t talk to an elected official. Scott-I would say just follow HIPPA any time you are talking about your work. Annie-I will follow up as well.

  9. FNH Inversing AFSCME before MNA- Cates-emails forwarded and complaints saying they were told even though an RN calls in and RN doesn’t take it that AFSCME gets inversed first. The member complained and the aods office said AFSCME approved it. We have never said this. AFSCME says MNA before AFSCME if its for an RN position. How many RNs required to have and how many do you have? Michelle-charge is RN. 3 other licensed nurses. RN or LPN. Cates-so if RN calls in and LPN can be called in? It’s the other unions stance. Trandum-I will take to Roxanne-Michelle-the need is an RN and LPNs.

Add Ons:

  1. Lead Leveling changes-Cates-we are on board for a new process for leveling. Trandum-in preliminary meetings with management. We heard your feedback and management is looking into the process. Looking to change qualifications? Cates-yes. Steve-more than just satisfactory review. Cates-labor asked for a test years ago. Management said its too expensive so they went with this route. Looking for meetings to find other ways. Scott-this position has always been where someone always disagrees. Interviews are based on popularity. Testing is that someone has test anxiety. Or qualifications aren’t high enough. A meeting took place. There was a written test at one time. It was very difficult. Do you want a lead that can pass a test or one that can lead? This is murky. Trandum-has to be collaboration between all 3 sites. With moose lake as well. If you have ideas, we want them. Eric’s presentation hasn’t been ignored. Send emails with ideas.

  2. Van Driver Breaks-Marvin-conversations where supervisor changed process of breaks. Come in at 1030 and forced to take it at 1055 so they can start lunch trays. Running into scheduled work so they can’t even get break in. but have to be back for lunch trays. Come back and take 30 min break 130 to 2 then at 330. Can they switch up to two 30 mins breaks? 130ish after trays and after supper trays like the kitchen does. Jesse said HR said they can’t do that. 45 and 15. Patrick-not that it wasn’t possible. Kitchen does this currently. Scott-I will do some work on that. Write their proposal and send that to me so I can have the information? Marvin-yes. Patrick-last thing I heard was it would be pitched and never heard anything. Scott-we will take a look at it.

  3. Day on the Hill-Cates-asking for as many vacations that day as possible. Scott-have everyone put in requests and if they are denied maybe we can make arrangements. Cates-31st of march. I want to support that.

Meeting Adjourned at 150pm